Pedro Victor says (via Facebook): Denis, point(s) taken. Yes ancient Greece was a class based society. Classes based on wealth and to some extent education. Elizabeth makes a valid point. I need to do some homework regarding D2. I have been observing what seems to be an attempt at R2 (Revolution2). In which case we shall have R2-D2 in South Africa. Could you please direct me to a summary of D2? I must confess to being slow of wit and alzheimers seems to be setting in. I know it's all very complicated, but I find simplicity more elegant (and eish it's easier for me to understand).
Denis replies:
Real rulers, like you; real servants, like the Prez
Pedro, I return from arctic Grahamstown to arctic Joburg. I'm full of culcha and icicles and seized particles and the inner glow that the Mother of Festivals always lights. I find you wading in to D2 on several fronts, and you bring joy to my soul. Hearty large thanks to you, you and your alzheimers. You keep me straight.
To me, this site feels soggy with summaries. To you, that ain't coming across. This is my problem, not your problem. I try again; supersummary.
What is D2? The next founding political principle of politics. The first principle was Strength; a ruler ruled until he got booted. The current principle is Ratification; the party ratified by the biggest herd rules, until some strays switch loyalties. The next principle, D2's, is Consentience, where the rules are what people want them to be. Your side of town might have different rules to mine. We don't need permission to be different; we need voters. If our differentness annoys our compatriots, they muster voters behind them and twist our arms.
Why does it work? Because (thanks to Ian C-G for making me quote phrases of mine that work for him) if before you go to war you must get your war authorised by (i) the guy who will man the trenches, and (ii) his mother, you go short of wars. All issues are in context of some ruling faction being booted out when its ambitions disrupt voters' lives. That's the maturest democracy you ever heard of.
Are the voters up to it? The top-of-the-charts dumb question. No! Slap! I shouldn't say that! (And I know it's not your question, Pedro). I'll only whisper "dumb". Democracy is about inclusion; it's not a brains test. If you want it to work better, you make a better system create more inclusion. You don't worry about the people. We became good photographers when we got smart cameras. We'll become good democrats when we get a smart system. That's one where the people to whom a thing matters are the people who decide the thing.
Pedro, I somehow feel this ain't the summary you're thinking of. How about this:
- D2 is the society that will kick off with a constitutional amendment allowing communities to be statutory bodies as and when they choose, exercising whatever powers their voters mandate.
- Most people will in time be citizens of about five tiers of community – typically nation, region, city, suburb, with sometimes a province or supra-region (Karoo?) and sometimes a block or street or infra-suburb. Smaller units will exist by doing something better/cheaper than bigger ones. They can change way-of-life, so they get abundant candidates. Your personal political energy might equally well go to any site or to none.
- Main thing you get out of this is no tyranny or potential thereof, plus no coups, civil wars, oppression. That comes from there being too much power around for any Hitler, Mugabe, Idi Amin, whoever to uproot it.
- Next thing you get is a long peaceful march to social justice. The poor get the weapon that works, an effective vote (one up on the familiar token vote, endorsing a monolithic party). The rich have the same weapon. Support swings Left or Right according to who delivers, against the backstop of the mama on the bus calling a halt when some faction brings threat to her life.
- The other practical benefit is upgraded governance. Corruption is hard when a pyramid of leadership figures are slavering to win points from the taxpayer. Inefficiency is hard when the councillor's recall is at the taxpayer's fingertips.
- Bottom line – D2 makes the voter genuinely the ruler; the leaders genuinely the servants of the public.
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written by Pedro Victor , July 12, 2011
Thanks for the summary Denis, now the concept is more accessable. Bloom makes some very salient points. The verbrokkeling to which you refer in an earlier mail may not be such a bad idea after all. Better half a krummelkoek than an empty cake tin?
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written by DP Beckett , July 12, 2011
aMan, synchronoginist supreme, my day is made by finding you on this site. Pedro, pusher for cogent cases, my day is double made by finding you fighting further forward.
This time, Pedro, your main Q is easy, whew, relief. Let me take it first.
Your krummelkoek -- (Pedro alludes to "krummels is ook koek", the Afrikaans version of "half a loaf is better than no bread"). I understand your sentiment deeply. You're saying "this stuff Beckett talks is a bit blerry radical; why not go halfway to start with, giving people significant local powers without all the complicated overlapping stuff?"
Laat ek nou bliksems duidelik uitstel: I am not saying "be hardline, reject the half a cake, hold out for the full thing". I am saying there is no half-cake to be had. It is, categorically, not on offer.
Why not? Because the half-cake is devolution. It gives more power to localities by taking some power from the nation. This rings alarm-bells. For 720 years the world's professors have applauded Switzerland's devolution. After 720 years Switzerland remains alone. Some countries -- US -- have significant regional powers passed down from the founding fathers (though eroded in the passing). Some countries -- UK -- even now talk of unprecedented expansion of local powers but take it for granted that these expanded powers must (a) be granted by Whitehall/Westminster/Downing Street, (b) can be withdrawn by W/W/D St, (c) are piffling in relation to the powers of W/W/D St.
History is well stocked with wars over a province resenting control from the capital, the capital resenting uphill from the province. The relationship between parts and the whole has always been a seesaw. If you want to give more power to the parts you reduce the power of the whole. The whole is the biggest guy on the block; he tends to win.
In some countries the Whole has an especially short sense of humour, and in no country on the planet is it shorter than SA. This makes perfect sense. For 340 years a minority kept a jackboot on things. Half a generation ago the minority was deposed. Now, everyone knows that something is awry, ANC people by no means least, many being deeply if mainly silently pained by the treadmill of corruption and decay.
But we're stuck, trapped by the seesaw. To give powers to the parts is not just a normal no-no. There is added (and legitimate) no-no in the race thing. Any imaginable devolution -- federal, confederal, consociational, cantonal, alles -- meets the same fate. The enormous ruling party says "look, whites trying to escape, again". The media go to hovels in Alex to take pictures of the spires of Sandton and say that the whites over there want to disconnect from the blacks over here. Your plan gets blown out of the water, china. You don't get your krummels. All you get is unpopular.
That, ou Pedro, is why devolution is a bad idea.
That is also why D2 will -- once examined and on the map and so forth -- work. It transcends that seesaw. It moves the power of the whole UP at the same time as it moves the power of the parts UP. That is news on all fronts. It means that D2 needs quite a stack of mental wearing-in. When it is worn in, when it is evident that Sophie Mthethwa the mealie lady will out of this process acquire more power to marshal more rich people in the cause of helping her life up the ladder, its inauguration will be as heartily welcomed by her as by the rich guy who is trading a bit of actual involvement in the society around him for the security he has been missing since 1652.
Pedro, now be a good, good man and tell me eerlik if this makes sense to you, real sense, otherwise I gotta do it again.
aMan, I come, I come, to your issue. I'm sorry, just have to handle some daily bread issues right now.
Thanks, mense, love you both.
This time, Pedro, your main Q is easy, whew, relief. Let me take it first.
Your krummelkoek -- (Pedro alludes to "krummels is ook koek", the Afrikaans version of "half a loaf is better than no bread"). I understand your sentiment deeply. You're saying "this stuff Beckett talks is a bit blerry radical; why not go halfway to start with, giving people significant local powers without all the complicated overlapping stuff?"
Laat ek nou bliksems duidelik uitstel: I am not saying "be hardline, reject the half a cake, hold out for the full thing". I am saying there is no half-cake to be had. It is, categorically, not on offer.
Why not? Because the half-cake is devolution. It gives more power to localities by taking some power from the nation. This rings alarm-bells. For 720 years the world's professors have applauded Switzerland's devolution. After 720 years Switzerland remains alone. Some countries -- US -- have significant regional powers passed down from the founding fathers (though eroded in the passing). Some countries -- UK -- even now talk of unprecedented expansion of local powers but take it for granted that these expanded powers must (a) be granted by Whitehall/Westminster/Downing Street, (b) can be withdrawn by W/W/D St, (c) are piffling in relation to the powers of W/W/D St.
History is well stocked with wars over a province resenting control from the capital, the capital resenting uphill from the province. The relationship between parts and the whole has always been a seesaw. If you want to give more power to the parts you reduce the power of the whole. The whole is the biggest guy on the block; he tends to win.
In some countries the Whole has an especially short sense of humour, and in no country on the planet is it shorter than SA. This makes perfect sense. For 340 years a minority kept a jackboot on things. Half a generation ago the minority was deposed. Now, everyone knows that something is awry, ANC people by no means least, many being deeply if mainly silently pained by the treadmill of corruption and decay.
But we're stuck, trapped by the seesaw. To give powers to the parts is not just a normal no-no. There is added (and legitimate) no-no in the race thing. Any imaginable devolution -- federal, confederal, consociational, cantonal, alles -- meets the same fate. The enormous ruling party says "look, whites trying to escape, again". The media go to hovels in Alex to take pictures of the spires of Sandton and say that the whites over there want to disconnect from the blacks over here. Your plan gets blown out of the water, china. You don't get your krummels. All you get is unpopular.
That, ou Pedro, is why devolution is a bad idea.
That is also why D2 will -- once examined and on the map and so forth -- work. It transcends that seesaw. It moves the power of the whole UP at the same time as it moves the power of the parts UP. That is news on all fronts. It means that D2 needs quite a stack of mental wearing-in. When it is worn in, when it is evident that Sophie Mthethwa the mealie lady will out of this process acquire more power to marshal more rich people in the cause of helping her life up the ladder, its inauguration will be as heartily welcomed by her as by the rich guy who is trading a bit of actual involvement in the society around him for the security he has been missing since 1652.
Pedro, now be a good, good man and tell me eerlik if this makes sense to you, real sense, otherwise I gotta do it again.
aMan, I come, I come, to your issue. I'm sorry, just have to handle some daily bread issues right now.
Thanks, mense, love you both.
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written by Pedro Victor , July 12, 2011
Oom Denis,
You makes me think. You see once upon a time I used to attend lectures and those blerry Afrikaners had to give this Pork and Cheese Boertjie a degree (after much sukkeling as I am obviously slow of wit). One such Afrikaner was Dr Andre Duvenhage. The dear Dr speaks slowly, thinks fast and writes an interesting take on the state of the (alien)nation:
http://www.afrikanerbond.co.za/rewolusie.htm
Yes Oom Denis my views may be of no significance but not so the views of the good citizens of:
1) Israel
2) Eritrea
3) Southern Sudan
Some of them may be starting off with the empty cake tin, net so 'n bietjie vol krummels but they may have a cake or two given some time and geld. No Swiss cheese for them! Now this idea of D2 is a very good idea and requires a lot more work on the implementation side. The obstacles in Africa are rampant corruption, incompetence in the organs of State and the power of Vested Interests. The vraag is how do we get the vest off the interested fellows? The Robin Hood theory of the rich giving to the poor has never really worked. What the people need is work, jobs, opportunities and the talented, the resourceful, the wealthy all have a role to play. Unfortunately this implies a level playing field, not the burying of the goose that lays the golden eggs. Not so easy within the paradigm of (in)convenient populist ideology. Not surprising then the quiet mumbling, the idea that the Groot Trek is upon the volk again and the fact that 1 million plus Saffacans have moved onward and upward since 1994.
You makes me think. You see once upon a time I used to attend lectures and those blerry Afrikaners had to give this Pork and Cheese Boertjie a degree (after much sukkeling as I am obviously slow of wit). One such Afrikaner was Dr Andre Duvenhage. The dear Dr speaks slowly, thinks fast and writes an interesting take on the state of the (alien)nation:
http://www.afrikanerbond.co.za/rewolusie.htm
Yes Oom Denis my views may be of no significance but not so the views of the good citizens of:
1) Israel
2) Eritrea
3) Southern Sudan
Some of them may be starting off with the empty cake tin, net so 'n bietjie vol krummels but they may have a cake or two given some time and geld. No Swiss cheese for them! Now this idea of D2 is a very good idea and requires a lot more work on the implementation side. The obstacles in Africa are rampant corruption, incompetence in the organs of State and the power of Vested Interests. The vraag is how do we get the vest off the interested fellows? The Robin Hood theory of the rich giving to the poor has never really worked. What the people need is work, jobs, opportunities and the talented, the resourceful, the wealthy all have a role to play. Unfortunately this implies a level playing field, not the burying of the goose that lays the golden eggs. Not so easy within the paradigm of (in)convenient populist ideology. Not surprising then the quiet mumbling, the idea that the Groot Trek is upon the volk again and the fact that 1 million plus Saffacans have moved onward and upward since 1994.
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written by Pedro Victor , July 13, 2011
Denis, "For 340 years a minority kept a jackboot on things." Not so! The view of South African history through the racial lense does not bode well for the Saffacan future. Fact is that Caucasian migrations into South Africa commenced in 1652 (I think - its been a long time since I thought about this). Caucasian movement into the areas outside of the Cape Province dates from the early 19th century. You have omitted the rule of the Zulu Empire which created its own local holocaust of Rwandan proportions. The Zulu were conquered by the British around 1879? Also the fact that the groot indunas of the British Empire completed the colonization of Southern Africa around 1902 by forcing tens of thousands of white and black South Africans into concentration camps. Of the white inmates records exist but apparently not so of the black inmates, who died in dreadful numbers! The racist component within South African society and also in South African legislation simply serves to keep all South Africans hostage to a racist past. I can do no better than to remember that Dr van Zyl Slabbert was of the opinion that those who do this can "budget generously for a racist future."
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written by DP Beckett , July 13, 2011
Pedro, what a fine barney you are making. This suburb of the site practically vibrates, while some others grow cobwebs.
Punte:
(1) All your dates are deadright. Jy slaag jou geskiedenis.
(2) I fully accept the (now frowned-upon) view that 1652 - 1994 was not just a long round of brutality.
(3) I also accept that the wrongs there were included awful wrongs. I do not just mean headline wrongs. I mean people like me being all pro-liberation and side-of-the-angels & all, while also having in back of mind the thought "but of course you other guys realise that we're smarter, you'll be support team."
(4) The 340-years reference came up in the course of establishing that your beloved devolution, or one half of D2 without the other, would be an own goal.
(5) Three cheers to you and Van Zyl on that budget. Just that to revise the budget means finding a better place to go. I'm saying the better place is D2. I am yet to hear that claim refuted. (Mainly people duck out of the discussion, because it's easier to keep shouting the familiar shout, futile as it may be.)
(6) Dankie weer. When D2 comes up I'll nominate you for mayor. Whether of Cape Town or Koeivasindiekloofspruit is to be seen.
Khotso!
Punte:
(1) All your dates are deadright. Jy slaag jou geskiedenis.
(2) I fully accept the (now frowned-upon) view that 1652 - 1994 was not just a long round of brutality.
(3) I also accept that the wrongs there were included awful wrongs. I do not just mean headline wrongs. I mean people like me being all pro-liberation and side-of-the-angels & all, while also having in back of mind the thought "but of course you other guys realise that we're smarter, you'll be support team."
(4) The 340-years reference came up in the course of establishing that your beloved devolution, or one half of D2 without the other, would be an own goal.
(5) Three cheers to you and Van Zyl on that budget. Just that to revise the budget means finding a better place to go. I'm saying the better place is D2. I am yet to hear that claim refuted. (Mainly people duck out of the discussion, because it's easier to keep shouting the familiar shout, futile as it may be.)
(6) Dankie weer. When D2 comes up I'll nominate you for mayor. Whether of Cape Town or Koeivasindiekloofspruit is to be seen.
Khotso!
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written by Pedro Victor , July 14, 2011
Denis,
Thanks for the reply. What you haven't mentioned is that the births of the 3 nation states mentioned by yours truly can be ascribed largely to persecution or at the very least an 'us nd them' approach to governance. Not my beloved devolution but rather an idea shared by many. No volunteering to be a mayor in South Africa thanks! As for the cow stuck in the trench, never discount the other oxen in the veld who may just help to extract it. Now for the D2 problem of people ducking out of the conversation, folks may be quiet for a variety of reasons. As you so rightly deduce, Soufafrica is one of those locations where one is best advised to remain popular by biting the tongue! Thats said, D2 seems like a good idea, part of the not so final solution. It would be better to have more people involved in these debates. If they won't even talk about it, how are they ever going to do it? Still no answer regarding those vested fellows....
Thanks for the reply. What you haven't mentioned is that the births of the 3 nation states mentioned by yours truly can be ascribed largely to persecution or at the very least an 'us nd them' approach to governance. Not my beloved devolution but rather an idea shared by many. No volunteering to be a mayor in South Africa thanks! As for the cow stuck in the trench, never discount the other oxen in the veld who may just help to extract it. Now for the D2 problem of people ducking out of the conversation, folks may be quiet for a variety of reasons. As you so rightly deduce, Soufafrica is one of those locations where one is best advised to remain popular by biting the tongue! Thats said, D2 seems like a good idea, part of the not so final solution. It would be better to have more people involved in these debates. If they won't even talk about it, how are they ever going to do it? Still no answer regarding those vested fellows....
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The ideas are worthy. It's the implementation that's problematic.